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Today, at the final home game of the season, the entire boys basketball team at our high school entered the gymnasium in pairs of two holding hands. They did so in protest of the fact that two gay students had been sent to detention for a week for simply holding hands in the school’s hallways. MMT

#13203 (40) - Mar 8, 2011 by Anon - Happy - Yes, that made me think too! (13599) - No, that made me sleepy. (454)



That is bravery at its finest. Good for them for realizing what a silly thing it was to do to the two boys. My applause to them!

pairs "of two" is redundant.

Actually wouldn't a pair of twos be four people? Nitpicking aside, this is awesome. I'm dealing with my sexuality better and better every day and hearing stories of acceptance like this helps immeasurably. thank you for sharing.

That's inspiring! I believe in leading by example, and it's great that those boys decided to do just that!

"When I say black people are inferior and the Bible opposes interracial marriage, I deserve to be treated like a rational human being!" I'm a Christian. I'm not a bigot. You're a bigot #6. Gay people cannot change their sexual orientation anymore than a black person can change their skin. (Or YOU can change your sexual orientation.) It is not offensive to call a racist a racist, and you are homophobic and deserve what's coming to you.

When an opinion contradicts a known fact, you do not have to tolerate it. We do not have to tolerate the KKK. Many religious beliefs are irrational, like people who believe in faith-healing over medicine and let their children die from treatable conditions like diabetes. There is no rational argument against homosexuality.

The belief that homosexuality is wrong and not agreeing with is = aversion. Therefore, #6 = homophobe according to your own definition Jlynnh.

I am a Christian. According to many denominations, churches, and congregants, homosexuality is not a sin. Systems of beliefs are measurable to a certain extent, see my example above in faith-healing. Or that of Creationism. It is arguable that all religious doctrine is irrational because we cannot know the true nature of God. It is his right to believe whatever he wants regarding homosexuality and blame religion instead of ignorance, but society does not have to treat all opinions as valid or equal.

Known fact: sexual orientation is an inborn trait. Known fact: homosexuality is not psychologically, physically, or socially harmful.

From the APA's website: "Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed." Psychology agrees, has for decades. Laws are catching up. Neither you or the Bible offer compelling reasons to the contrary or evidence demonstrating homosexuality is objectively bad or wrong. I respect free speech and difference of opinion to a point. If you'd take the KKK seriously...you're nuts.

Can somebody tell me what there is to disagree with?

I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality. Love is a beautiful thing, regardless of who you love. To those who do have a problem with it because of your religion, it's a case of hate the sin but love the sinner. I'm a Christian, too, and I'm very into my faith. Christianity teaches love, kindness, and tolerance. I just can't see how people can claim to be Christians and dislike others for something they can't change.

I feel that people "don't agree" with homosexuality because they can't understand it and refuse to try. I am straight and agnostic. I used to "disagree" with homosexuals until i actually took the time to think about how irrational it is to discriminate against people who have different sexual and relationship needs. Who am i to say that a man cannot love a man, or a woman another woman? I certainly feel i have no right to infringe on their freedoms. Additionally, i have no right to say anyone is wrong in their "disagreement." I just ask that people be more open to things that they are not open too. Thinking does a lot of good when done rationally.

To anyone who thinks the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, it doesn't. Para physin, toe'vah, shekab, malakos, arsenokoitai, and sarkos heteras, among others, have not been properly translated and paint a much different picture of rape, male prostitution, and uncleanliness at the same level as intercourse during menstruation. And don't pretend the Bible and Christianity weren't used to advance racist agendas including anti-miscegenation laws. Christians cited the integrity of marriage the way they do sanctity today. This came from the judge who rule in Loving v. Virginia: "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix." I'm not saying all Christians oppose gay rights because many do not. And many other religions not only support gay rights but have recognized marriages for centuries.

I don't think you're a bad person, When_Justice_Prevails, or deserve harassment. Don't take this wrong but you can't have it both ways. You can't defend bigoted views and say you're not a bigot. Everything aside I love this MMT and the basketball team standing up for discriminated classmates!

I've asked for an explanation what there is to disagree with about homosexuality, a non-negotiable congenital trait, and the only person who supplied one quoted Leviticus. It was part of the deleted conversation. As a Christian I do not follow Old Testament instructions (apart from the 10 Commandments), and especially not the Holiness Code. We ultimately don't have to understand your objection because it's most likely wrong. Flat-out uneducated, misguided, prejudiced, maybe not hostile but incorrect. We can agree to disagree because I do remember you saying you wouldn't stand in the way of gay rights as human rights. That's all anyone should ask of you.

That is your own personal beliefs. I, however, believe the Old Testement relevant, as God did quote in Matthe 5 and 17: â

If you trim your beard or wear blended fabrics you've damned yourself already, WJP, according to Leviticus. For the record I do not believe in sex slavery or genocide per the OT because I am not Jewish. Paul wrote that Christians who continued to abide OT law would continue to have a veil over their eyes (2 Corinthians 3:14-16). We respectfully disagree. But do you see the absurdity of judging gay relationships by a single religious interpretation from writers who weren't scientists? Galileo has something to say about that lol. I do not wish to impugn your faith, but I will pray that our Creator opens your eyes to love.

When_Justice_Prevails, courtesy of dictionary.com intolerance is defined as unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect contrary opinions or beliefs, persons of different races or backgrounds, etc. From what you have said, "I don't think homosexuality is right" "I do not agree with homosexuals", it does not seem like you respect homosexuals' opinions or beliefs, which would make you intolerant. According to your own definition this would make you a bigot and homophobic.

This makes me a hypocrite but let's lay off WJP to avoid another deleted convo. We made our point without polls or political correctness. We stood up for what's right just like this basketball team. Thank you everyone.

Here's a different perspective: Did the school have a no-affection policy? Many schools do. That means no making out in front of lockers (still disgusts me to this day) No kissing, and in some cases, no holding hands. While I have nothing against homosexuality, I am greatly offended by any couple who feel the need to announce it to the world by practically having sex in front of my locker while I'm trying to get to class. A no-affection policy is reasonable to have in any high school and if a gay couple were breaking the rules, then they were breaking the rules.

Why do homophobes believe their antigay opinions aren't homophobic? Maggie Gallagher says the same even as she tries to repeal marriage equality, as if the true measure is Westboro Baptist Church's extremism. How disturbing such a positive MMT was co-opted by those who cry persecution for thinking there's something wrong with two boys holding hands.

I do not particularly understand why the last conversation was deleted, but okay. I do have a question for WJP, though. What about homosexuality do you disagree with? You said it is not right, but what do you mean? It is not right that people are sexually attracted to the same sex (that homosexuality exists) or that people should be allowed to express that attraction (homosexual behavior)? And for the record, just because you disagree with something or somebody does not mean you are disrespecting that thing or person or being intolerant. Tolerance is acceptance that something exists and allowing it to. Its not as if WJP is preaching anything to the contrary here, so there is no intolerance.

Some of the last convo got nasty with that Tommy guy and then some girl who said gay sex disgusts her, and defenders attacking our faith. WJC's religion tells him homosexuality is wrong. He's not intolerant exactly, but he assumes there's something about homosexuality someone can object to. And what he objects to is love. It isn't right.

People object to love every day, by choice, apathy, and/ or ignorance. Nobody tells me otherwise when I pay for an expensive pair of new jeans instead of donating half the money to the Japanese red cross and buying a cheaper pair. Is it wrong? It just depends on how you look at it. I know plenty of people, religious and not, who dont believe that homosexual men and women can love through their intimate relationships. Personally, if God is love and if God can be with anybody, homosexual or not, then there can be love in any relationship. I simply have yet to hear that from any homosexual partnership. And if you dont believe in God or are agnostic, then love is something else, possibly something easier to fit into a relationship. I dont know, but Im open to hearing anything. What else are our ears for?

Uh, your example is superficial and not equivalent. WJP objects to homosexuality in general, not an individual homosexual's actions. I do believe in a God and am a Gnostic Christian. Love is within us whether we choose to identify it or not. Why should gay couples talk about God to justify their feelings to you? Of course gay couples love each other like straight people love each other. I've heard the arguments about lust and perversion and that's possible in individuals but not the entire gay demographic. It's not coincidence the majority who assume that report not personally knowing a gay person.

Let me clarify. I have yet to hear any gay couple say they love each other. Im sure they do, but I dont know very many. And I have yet to see many gay couples who are practicing, well, whatever religion, but thats just my own personal experience, as I have plenty of gay friends who do practice, but just arent in a relationship. The problem, Ive found, is finding ones gay identity in a religion which denies that your feelings could be love. I should talk to my friends about that, but lets be clear: do not assume I hold the same views as WJP, because I dont, I am simply defending his position which to me seems perfectly clear, albeit wrong. I still need to hear what he has to say instead of what you have to say for him. And please be more respectful, your comment is bordering offense. (to me)

What have I walked into....! @Sartoriusrex you're joking right? Watch news footage after legalized civil unions. Elderly couples cry and hug each other. Long lines outside city hall. Ask yourself, why gay marriage if not gay love?

"I have yet to hear any gay couple say they love each other." *facepalm* The cognitive dissonance and willful ignorance in this thread is staggering.

Okay. forgive my willful ignorance, but I do believe that people love each other whatever their sexual orientation, despite my personal experiences or lack there of. Im sorry, but what does cognitive dissonance mean? I was under the impression that it was the feelings caused by conflicting ideas or emotions, which I may have, but am not aware of. Enlighten me. Antilegomena, I agree with you, but I dont watch much news footage, so what are you trying to convince me of? I must not be very clear about my positions, because Im taking a lot of heat for wanting to hear more of another side.

Saying that you don't agree with homosexuality is equivalent to saying you don't agree with people who like salad. Who cares if you don't like salad: THEY DO. They aren't forcing you to like it, so you shouldn't force them to not like it. They have a right to like salad, just as you have a right to not like salad. Why would you say that liking salad is wrong? It's not wrong, it's what they like. Who is anyone to say that loving something is wrong? There is a saying that I'm quite fond of: Love is not about race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, or GENDER. Love is about wanting the best for that person. If I say that I don't agree with Christians and I think Christianity is wrong because it teaches intolerance, then you should respect that. Because I respect a Christian's right to believe what they please.

What makes your defense even more reasonable: sexual orientation is not a choice, but religion is.

I don't understand why this argument is here. A wise person is the one who knows when to hold their tongue. The fool speaks their mind whenever they please. Nothing you do will change the mind of When_Justice_Prevails because they have reasons for believing what they do, and because they believe in their reasoning, it is true to them. They don't hurt anyone. They just disagree, or I think a better phrasing would have been don't understand. But, because they are who they are, unless they choose to change their mind, they won't. No matter what anyone else says. And everyone else should, if not respect, then tolerate his understanding, or misunderstadning, however it may be. He tolerates what he doesn't understand so I see no true issue. I do support the rights of all sexual orientation, whether they are bisexual, homosexual, pansexual or transexual, or something else. It's letting them be who they are that matters, not that you understand why they are who they are. No one can every truly understand that for anyone. I applaud the efforts of the boys demonstration, but only if the two boys who got detention did so only because they were two boys. Otherwise they don't deserve defense for breaking rules anymore than a male and female holding hands at school deserve defense for breaking a no public display of affection rule.

Okay first of all, flygirl17: That was one delightful analogy. Well done. Secondly, I'm not going to get involved in the debate, I'm just going to offer this column by Dan Savage that deals with this very conversation and might offend some of you but that's the point, really. To summarize it: too bad if you "oppose" homosexuality but do so quietly. To use a cliche: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. To stand back and quietly judge is no less evil than to openly show hatred. The judgment is the issue here, not the flinging of insults and violence or the lack thereof. To say that you "don't agree" with homosexuality means that you see homosexuals as somehow subpar to you and your lifestyle "choices" (because homosexuality is absolutely in no way a choice, the same way heterosexuality is not a choice). You are right, they are wrong. I'm sorry, sir or ma'am, and with all the respect I can muster, please hear me when I say (type) two things: You are wrong in these beliefs, and even if this were not true as your religion dictates: TOO DAMN BAD. Just because you don't act out in violence or bullying doesn't change the fact that you buy into the beliefs of bigots and YOU ARE A PART OF THE PROBLEM. I am bisexual and I'm offended by your "disagreement" with something about me that I cannot change. It doesn't matter if you call me a name or not. It doesn't matter if you hit me or not. You've already hurt me by judging me for something I cannot change. So too damn bad if you're offended that people think you're a bigot: I'm offended too, by you. So much for not getting involved in the debate.

Since the bible is the basis for so many poor arguments, should we abolish and not tolerate divorce or just stone all divorcees? The bible says homosexuality is wrong therefor it is a FACT as one person stated, does not make it so. You are basing your argument on the preception that the bible is factual and that isn't proven. {"From the APA's website: "Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed." Psychology agrees, has for decades"} hmmmm specialists opinion or a 2000 year old book: which is probably closer to the truth? Maybe those converted Christian homosexuals are just fooling themselves or trying to fool us making them hypocrites.

Everyone, listen up. Just once. Homosexuality is not genetic! It is EPIGENETIC! (links to articles at the bottom.) To quote from the 2nd article "Time and time again, scientists have claimed that particular genes or chromosomal regions are associated with behavioral traits, only to withdraw their findings when they were not replicated. "6 (This quote is from an article in SCIENCE magazine.) Epigenetic roughly means a genetic trait that predisposes someone to a certain trait, but does not guarantee they will develop that trait. Homosexuality is epigenetic. It is widely known by many scienticist (reference my 1st article) that homosexuality is dependent on mostly ENVIRONMENTAL factors. Meaning NOT 100% genetic. They already know that more than half of what determines sexuality is not genetic! So this means that it MOSTLY is environmental. The 1st article does a great job explaining, read and learn. Homosexuality is still a choice! If it is not 100% determined by genetics than it is still a choice. However, less than 50% of it is determined by choice, who knows maybe it only its 5%(Just like Breast cancer genes and schizophrenia which only have about a 5% correlation.). If you look it up there are multiple gay genes, but still most scientists believe it is determined by environmental and psycho-social factors, but the gay community wants you to believe it is largely genetic. If you are a person dealing with homosexual thoughts or homosexuality, but is a christian I urge you to talk to a pastor or join a local church. Don't worry, they won't kick you out. Jesus is accepting to all. I had a friend who was convinced he was homosexual only to realize after getting back into church, that he had been tricked and influenced by society. http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html http://www.mission.org/jesuspeople/thegaygene.html

this post made me smile. this isn't even worth arguing over. you don't choose what you're attracted to, you just realize what it is that you like. calm down.

It's perfectly likely that the two boys were punished for PDA, not because of some teacher's homophobic tendencies...

Anyone who uses the Christian Bible as an excuse to promote hate and intolerance of other people are going to hell. Matthew 5:22

I like how n3vys341 starts off sounding all smart and nice and then tells us we can pray away the gay. No way. There's no gay gene like there's no straight gene.

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